Trials with Maya Z

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Maya: Hello everyone. My name's Maya and you're with Trials with Maya Z. And I'm today here with Alex O'Leary - super excited because we will be covering a very unusual topic again around what makes your breaks clinical trials, but from a completely different perspective.

But let me first allow my guest, Alex, to introduce himself.

Alex : [00:01:00] Thank you, Maya, and thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here. My name's Alex O'Leary. I'm a director of the pharmaceutical business conference group or PBC group. I've worked across clinical trials, specifically in clinical trials, events, and conferences for over 13 years now, delivering everything from delegate tickets to content strategy to solution providers. And I started from the very kind of bottom and worked up to running what is now my own company, alongside some colleagues. I've also spent some time working across the clinical trial and wider health tech space in mergers, acquisitions, and investment as well.

So, I'm able to come at it from that side of things as well.

Maya: Thank you, Alex. Alex and I met a few weeks ago, or maybe a month ago. And congratulations actually on [00:02:00] starting your own business. What really excited me was our conversation about different conferences and events in the clinical research space. My questions are all about what makes or breaks clinical trials, and that's exactly what we all discuss when we visit different events and conferences.

And I immediately became super curious to hear your perspective, Alex. What are these hot topics that people are discussing during these conferences and events? And I'm not speaking about the trendy stuff, the things that we all hear, but which are these real things that are on top of the heads of these people, both from the solution providers, but also from the buyers - from these companies that are there to find solutions or just to hear what happens with the industry.

Alex: Sure. Well, I think there are a couple of different kinds of ways you can come at this and hot topics and things that are actually at the top of people's agenda. I suppose it depends on who you listen to. I think there's one [00:03:00] list of things that conference organizers want to tell you are the most important things in the space.

There is a list of things that solution providers and vendors want to tell you are the most important things. And then there's a list of things that a trial sponsor says are the most important things for you. And those things cross over for sure, but I think when it comes to what kind of makes or breaks a clinical trial, it's important to, tie in with events, that you are not just focusing on things that are popular or exciting or are in the news and everyone is talking about, but things that actually make an impact. And I think if you look across event agendas, not just our agendas, but across the entire event industry, you'll often see topics recurring again and again and again.

And I'm thinking here of things like decentralized clinical trials and DEI - diversity and inclusion, which are showing up a lot. But I think if you often look at the [00:04:00] level at which those topics are being covered at events, it's very superficial and it's things. Everyone wants to say they're doing properly.

Everyone's putting things up on their website saying how important DEI is to them. But actually, when it comes to clinical trials and engaging properly with a diverse range of patient populations, I think it's important for people to look at: are these companies actually doing that? Is it actually part of what they're doing, or are they just saying they're doing it because it's a buzzword, because it's on all of the newsletters, and because everybody's talking about it?

The same with decentralized clinical trials or virtual trials. Obviously, COVID was a massive shift in the clinical trial sector. It was a massive shift in events as well. It was a very interesting time to work in events, I can tell you, but with decentralized trials, I think, you had over COVID, you had a real explosion in companies who were [00:05:00] specialists or becoming specialists in decentralized and virtual trials.

And then you had a big group of companies who weren't specialists in that area, but suddenly had to say they were specialists, because, otherwise, they can't keep running their trials. And I think when it comes to DCT, you need to look at it as a trial sponsor about what people are actually saying. Are they saying: this is what we could do, this is nice to do, we might be able to do this; or, are they saying: this is what we have done, this is what worked, this is what didn't work. And I think that's very important when it comes to these kinds of topics on conference agendas when they're being addressed, is it kind of superficial umbrella level overview of topics or is it actual actionable insight into what people have done and are going to do moving forward?

Maya: Yeah.

Alex: When you have those topics, what it all boils back to, in your original question about what makes or breaks a clinical trial, what makes or breaks [00:06:00] clinical trial is the patient. And if you don't engage the patients, if you don't recruit them, if you don't retain them, and if you don't treat them properly during the trial, then the trial isn't gonna be a success.

You can have the greatest tech, and the greatest operational setup in the world, but if the patients aren't at the heart of everything you're doing, then it's not going to be successful. And that's everything from DCT to recruitment to sites, which again, is really central to what people should be talking about.

The patient has to be at the heart of it. And I think if you are a prospective attendee or a solution provider looking to go to an event, if you are looking at topics on the agenda and patients aren't at the absolute heart of everything that's being talked about, then that is what I would consider a superficial overview of the topic - it isn't on a conference agenda and it is not going to give the audience the kind of actionable takeaways that they really should do when they're giving up their time to go to an event. And that's very much what we try to [00:07:00] do with the Clinical Outsourcing group events - have all of our topics providing actionable takeaways for the people who come.

Not just nice two days where you get a few free USB sticks and a nice buffet lunch. It's about actually going back to your office after two days and doing what you were doing before better and being better informed for the trials that you have coming down the track.

Maya: You just mentioned one hot topic to me - including patients in conferences. But I'll also add here that yes, you are right, what makes or breaks a clinical trial is the patient's willingness and excitement around the clinical trial. I can't say excitement, but let's say, do they believe that they can benefit from a...

Alex: They have to be motivated is, I think, the key thing. Not excitement, but motivation. Yeah.

Maya: Exactly. I would also add here that throughout the time I also convinced myself how important the role is for the sites in motivation - to be there as well. So I would, if there [00:08:00] are three main ingredients that make or break a clinical trial, I would say, yes, I said actually three.

And these three for me are regulatory, sites, and patients. So, which brings me to my next question. You said that it's very, very important to have some actionable insights or case studies that you can bring back home. And you said also patient involvement. What if we have events and conferences where we can include patients and sites, maybe regulatory? Regulatory is already included. I think there are plenty of conferences like the DAA, where you can go and listen just for the regulatory patients. There are a few, but what I've seen is in most events and conferences, it's almost like you're in different teams.

We are the industry, you are the patients and you are the sites. Is it possible that we don't work [00:09:00] like that and create a synergy between all these three stakeholders? Have you seen that before?

Alex: I have seen it before. I've seen it in the events, that we run. But you are right in your kind of summary of the vast majority of the established industry events that are out there. And I think if you are a trial sponsor, or indeed a solution provider, and you are assessing whether to go to an event or not when it comes to the content, I think it's important to make an assessment on the organizer and what they have at the heart of what they're doing. And I think what I mean by that is do they have patients and the advancement of clinical research at the heart of what they're doing and looking to provide that kind of synergy where everyone's in the room, everyone is pulling in the same direction to come away from the event with improvements moving forward?

Or are they, as an organizer, thinking about the financial aspect and how much money they can make from selling as many exhibition standards as possible [00:10:00] and selling as many solution providers, and speaking slots on the agenda as possible? Because there are two kinds of event organizers out there. I would like to say that we fall on the side where we want to provide genuine industry advancement.

And that's why if you look at our agendas, we include patient advocacy bodies not-for-profits, healthcare, and government, alongside sites, solution providers, and trial sponsors. That is representative of the entire clinical trial ecosystem. If you look at it, and it's the case for a lot of very well-established events, if you look there, the agenda is biopharma. And its solution providers who are paying to be there. And that's because there's a focus on how many speaking slots we can sell on the agenda, and how much money we can make. And as an attending biopharma company, you are not going to get value from that because you're not seeing the full ecosystem in action.

And actually, as a solution provider, who's paying all that [00:11:00] money to speak, you are also going to get a limited return on the money you spend, because you are engaging with an audience that isn't fully engaged with the entire environment of clinical trials. So I think when you're talking about the best practices at events, you need to look at what the organizer is doing and whether are they putting patients at the heart of their agendas and at the environment at events they're trying to create.

And if they're not, then that's an event that's run to make as much money as possible, not an event that's run to actionable forward progress for the industry.

[00:12:00]

Maya: It's interesting what you're saying and at the same time, you just recall a memory in my head many years ago, probably like 12 years ago or something like that, I was invited to be a part of a patient-hosted event. It was actually a world patients' organization. I don't remember the precise name, but a global one. And it was only patients invited and they discussed global patients' challenges, problems, and solutions. So yeah, there were some pharma representatives here and there, some regulatory, but the majority of the people were patients. And what I discovered was that this conference had nothing to do with the conference that I would usually go to, like the industry events, let's put it that way. The difference didn't come from the fact that it's a different audience, but the entire language was different- different sorts of problems were discussed, different challenges, and completely different agendas. [00:13:00] Even we were when we were discussing clinical research, sometimes even the terminology was different, with the patients and the industry stakeholders.

So I wonder, how do you bridge this gap between what patients mainly care about and how they communicate that and what the industry cares about and their language, the way they express that?

Alex: Well, I think it boils back to the point I made before about what, as an organizer, you want to provide as an event. And I think if you want to provide an environment where productive conversations can take place, where people can be engaged by very high-quality content that brings in the full width and breadth of industry and patients and sites and regulatory, all the things that you mentioned, then I think if your objective is to do that, then you can kind of move the dial in terms of how people view events.

As an organizer, if [00:14:00] your objective is only to drive as much revenue and profit as possible, then you're never going to achieve that. Because to achieve what I've just mentioned, you need to be happy to step away from just getting in as much revenue as you possibly can.

And I think, that sort of boils back to making selections on events and. When it comes to solution providers, there is, and this is something that happens as companies grow and they develop, but when they select events, there's a question always as to whether they're making, selecting for the right reasons.

And if you, as a solution provider, who has an events budget and you're paying money for stands and speaking slots and branding and all the things that go along with it, if you are paying to do that at an event just because you've been there every year or because you are being pressured by the company to sign up for the next year's event before you've even attended this year's event, then maybe that's not attending for the right [00:15:00] reasons.

And that brought us back to the way that the organizer positions it and what the organizer wants to achieve. But I think an assessment needs to be made on events based on whether they actually deliver what you want to achieve. And don't get me wrong, the return on investment in clinical trials from events is very difficult to quantify because you could be talking about anything. Even if you started a sales conversation onsite, at an event, you're probably looking at a year cycle to anyone signing a contract with you anyway, and I've worked with plenty of clients over the years who've met someone at an event, and then they've met them here and there for five years in a row, and then eventually they work with them because it's about being front of mind.

I often talk about events as looking at return on objectives, like what do you as a solution provider want to get out of the event? And that should be quite simple to quantify in terms of what you want to get out of the event. And that should really boil back to the way the [00:16:00] event is structured.

The way the organizer has done it. And if you are making a decision event-based, not on the achievement of those objectives, Then you are making a decision based on something that actually shouldn't be a core factor in that decision-making. You're making it on legacy choices. We were there last year, so we'll be there this year.

You're making a decision because your competitors are there and you don't want to miss out. But actually, are you missing out on anything if you're not there? If you're not achieving your objectives? Then you're not, or as I've seen time and time and time again across industry and lots of different events, you're signing up for the next year to secure a good booth spot on the plan before you've even got to the event.

And then it doesn't matter whether your objectives are met or not, because you've already inked next year's contract. So I think when it comes to events and looking to achieve what we should be looking to achieve as a wide clinical trial industry, choices need to be made based on the right assessments.

When it comes to going to events, [00:17:00] both biopharma and solution providers.

Maya: Hmm. And from what I'm hearing, this is mainly regarding, let's say, solution providers. But what if I am, let's say the buyer and or for example, someone that just wants to learn more about the industry and just, not the industry per se, but just to speak with other people and learn from their experiences and, um, and like, see what's the trend like?

So how, how do I select, uh, the right event for me then?

Alex: Well, I think as an attendee looking to learn and network and so on, you need to try and assess what role you play for the organizer. Do you play the role of someone who is being provided with content and networking and those actionable takeaways that I mentioned? Is the agenda being put together for you to come in, spend two days, listen to really good content, get involved in panels and roundtables and whatever, and go away and [00:18:00] perform your role and your upcoming trials better than you did before? Is that in which case that a good event for you to attend, or are you there to provide prospective clients for the solution provider? And events are a mix of those things. Solution providers are there. They fund trial sponsor attendants in a lot of cases. If you, as a prospective attendee at an event, can see that the only reason you are being asked to go is that the organizer needs to make up numbers to deliver for the solution provider attendees, then that is not an event that is designed with your best interest. And I would argue with the industry's best interest at heart. So what we try to do with the COG events is provide exactly that - an environment and content. That allows people to go away better at their job than when they walk through the door. If while they're there, they meet with some solution providers who can help them [00:19:00] along the road, then that's all the better.

But ultimately, events should start with quality content, not with providing

Maya: Hmm.

Alex: targets solution providers, regardless of who.

Maya: Yeah, I love that. Quality content is the king of all content. This actually brings me to my next question. And last question. Everything I'm hearing from you sounds very inspirational, how we should focus on, the content, the relationship, the actionable insights, and I just wonder, can events and conferences accelerate change in the clinical research industry?

Alex: Absolutely they can, you can create an environment where over two or three days you have all of the aspects of clinical trials in the room. You've got trial sponsors and solution providers, and that's everyone from service to tech-based industries. You can have government regulatory healthcare, [00:20:00] charities, patient groups, not-for-profits, and patients themselves.

You can, as an event organizer, which we try to do, put all those people in a room, and if you do that in an environment that is conducive to proper connections and proper engagement, you genuinely make serious forward progress with the clinical trial industry and what it's doing. Because you can create hundreds of conversations and hundreds of interactions that outside of an event format might take months or years to ever happen. So that's what you can do if you have the ethics at the core of what you're doing as an event organizer to actually go after that object.

As opposed to just driving after the finances, which sadly is the case for a lot of organizers, but it doesn't have to be.

Maya: Well, I'll take this as a summary and inspiration for the rest of my day conferences to become a platform for change, a platform for innovation, and focus on the real [00:21:00] topics, on the real problems that we all have. And try to tackle one way or another the real cases where that demonstrate how we can solve some of these problems or, at least, how we can think about these problems and overcome these challenges.

Alex, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your thoughts. I really wish for my entire network to see more people like you. And it'd be great to meet you again and speak about this quality content and how we can actually move and drive change in the industry forward.

Alex: Thank you, Maya. I really appreciate you having me. It's been a great chat and yeah, I look forward to seeing you in person fairly soon.